YOGA & CHRISTIANITY
CAN ONE WIN?
Ramakrisna in contemplative stature
PART I OF THE INTERVIEW WITH SWAMI G
Discussion between Swami Ganga, an Enlightened female soul who has attained the "Nirvakalpa Sahaj" state (a state of effortless and constant Nondual Peace) - Swami Ganga-Puri Kaliuttamananda-Giri. (Seattle, Wa - Rishikesh, india) Kundalini - Siddha Path -..., and Rasa Von Werder, a woman who roots in Christianity, has seen God face to face and carries the Interior Divine Stigmata. The conflict lies in the fact that Swami Ganga believes ONLY HER PERCEPTION IS RIGHT and there is no other perfect consciousness or understanding. Rasa Von Werder argues that the Christian road reaches the Absolute as well. She does not deny Swami Ganga's attainment, but, she claims, Christian saints have had it all along. They reach the Absolute Nondual state through their Satguru/Savior/Avatar/Messiah Jesus Christ. They do not remain in a place of duality (duality meaning worship God as separate rather than being One with God,) but attain the Nirvakalpa/Moksha/Nirvana/Glory State the same way that Eastern saints do. Here is their discussion......
The Interview. Questions posed by Rasa Von Werder. Further answers from her as "Editor" with nothing abridged......... Please see Christianity Appendix at end.
SWAMI G: Will answer what may be answered ....
RASA: At the present time, you do not experience, you said, what is called 'phenomena.' To me, they are called 'krijas' and also gifts of the Holy Spirit. Did you ever experience these things? That is visions, intimations (interior sense of things), locutions, psychic or clairvoyant sense or inner knowing, intuitive or abstractive, physical or intellectual vision?
SWAMI G: Yes there was a passing through these things .... these are not kriyas they are termed siddhis ...... psychic things though are not tantamount to being spiritually advanced .....
(Editor: We are not talking earth-plane "psychic" here. This refers to THE GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT, THE GIFTS OF GOD!)
...there is this confusion with people believing such things to be the goal...
(Editor: NO confusion on my part. Gifts are tools. The gifts are of two kinds, those which are called 'gratuitous', to be used here while we live, and those that go with us into Heaven. For example, Fear of the Lord we don't need in Heaven - Piety - Counsel we don't need. Word of knowledge and Word of Wisdom we don't need as they are used to determine our way here. When we go to the other side, what stays? I do know the Holy Stigmata stays, shining with Light, like a Purple Heart Medal! And different saints have different manifestations of such. Much to discuss here, not to be dismissed quickly and easily!)
...these are only things along the way ......
RASA: Did you ever have meaningful dreams?
SWAMI G: yes ---- dreams can be quite telling along the way much of the symbology can tell where the seeker is within their search .....
RASA: Were you ever able to communicate with the other side of the veil? That is to say, to see the situation in Heaven, Purgatory or Hell?
SWAMI G: If you are speaking about conversing with ghosts then no ---- it was never an interest .....
(Editor: Is Swami G is being facetious or can she really believe this way? Rasa is referring to souls in Heaven...are they ghosts? Souls in Purgatory are known as "the holy souls" - they are not ghosts. In Christianity, we don't deal with ghosts - have no theology of them and we don't try to get involved with who they are.)
RASA: Have you ever been able to see inside the hearts, souls, or 'hard drives' of another person?
SWAMI G: Yes ---- knowing their thoughts and feeling what was taking place in their physical bodies .....
RASA: Do you consider these situations to be of a lower nature, and you are beyond this? Please explain.
SWAMI G: Yes ---- in Realization all holdings of duality falls away ..... One enters and dissolves into that singular IS ...... the chasing or holding onto powers etc . loses it's allure ... (Editor: See comments on chasing powers farther down)
There is nothing to fear -- nothing to lose --- nothing to gain ...... Simply the fragrance of life in each moment as it is remains as the Fragrance of God ..... there is no need to attempt to enhance anything....
(Editor: Saints were not 'chasing powers.' Jesus and His apostles were not 'chasing powers.' The great souls of today who use their gifts to assist others are not 'chasing powers.' Are we degrading Christianity and saints once again, or are we on some kind of semantics problem?)
SWAMI G: Hahahahahah do you think that KNOWING God falls short of understanding and wisdom ..? All true Knowledge and Wisdom are coming from This ..... it is like living and the eyes registering separation and differentiation while the mind & heart remains in the Holy of Holies of ONE ....
RASA: This would be similar to the above, perhaps the same....might be only semantics between yoga and Christianity.
Do you know much about this subject?
SWAMI G: What is there to know .....
(Editor: There is MUCH to know about the gifts of the Holy Spirit!)
RASA: There are also the gifts of Power. They are healing and miracles. Have you ever had these?
SWAMI G: Yes
RASA: What do you think of these gifts?
SWAMI G: They still take place as needed by others .... yet now there is no consciousness of a doer in place .... . things simply take place ------
RASA: I cannot compare you to any soul or saint that I know of, since I am not overly familiar with yoga and Buddhist saints, except the most famous ones. As an advanced enlightened soul, who are you most like?
SWAMI G: Who ? There is only ONE in Realization .... what you term as *who* stems from what others term personality ..... the consciousness of All Realized Beings is One and the Same .... the outward actions simply are continuations of what developed within this particular life's journey in connection with the form of the moment ...... but that is not what one is ..... (Editor: Makes one want to pull their hair out, does it not? Swami refers to individuals at one point and at another, says there are none.)
RASA: Who would be a template or framework similar to who you are? Please explain how you resemble this person in your walk and in your attainment.
SWAMI G: no idea ...... what does that matter ? it has nothing to do with what remains after the mental separations fall away or implode ----- the journey this time was one of inner introspection and through the energy of Kundalini when Shakti ( consciousness and energy with phenomena) implode and merge within Shiva (Absolute - beyond form or relational world) the past life is No More ..... There is no longer any awareness or relationship to that in order to judge it compared to another....... it was a dream story ---- or a nightmare that has ceased and is no more ........
RASA: You did say that zeal and missionary desires leave you in this state.
SWAMI G: Yes ..... there is no longer a need or desire to save the world ...... hahahahahaah the messiah complex...
(Editor: Again, this is so cruel to Jesus and all the saints who suffered to save others...as if wanting to save others is a 'complex' or mental disorder!)
...that drives so many (which stems from their pain)...
(Editor: Stems from their pain? What about stems from their love? That is what differentiates us from the East so strongly - the LOVE that fuels our missionary zeal!)
....ends ... There is the Reality that God IS in control !!!!
(Editor: Yes, God is in control. But God uses clay vessels to do Her work! These vessels require will power, determination, discipline, energy, to do God's will - which is to help everyone, save everyone, etc. God lives and works in us and through us. We are God, we are Instruments, and this is how God works. Not as an invisible being alone, but visible in Her Instruments, Saints, Windows, and Links.)
There is nothing that is ever separate from this Divine IS ..... Each takes the journey as per it's own inclination ...... When ready then this Inner Divine IS will makes it's appearance to that seeker ..... or to the world in general ......
(Editor: This does not happen willy nilly. It comes with effort - the effort of those who pray and work, not sit in a rocking chair!)
RASA: What is the purpose of being in this state on earth?
SWAMI G: Celebration ..... Holding the pattern of Truth as it IS .....
RASA: From what I know, God wants us, when we are advanced, to be of service to Her and to bring others to Enlightenment.
SWAMI G: God or Divine IS (which is not a her nor a him but beyond any dual nature ) has no mental thoughts about this ....
(Editor: My Catechism says I was born "To know, love and serve God, and to be happy with Him (Her to us) in Eternity. God cares! God wills!)
But it simply IS what takes place because of the inherent nature Absolute's Being ..... Being that God's first projection holds the seeds of Infinite Love (which simply gives of it's Self ) this continuing of Seva (service to the world) simply flows ....... it happens ...... but it is not out of a conscious drive ---- it is spontaneous within flow .......
RASA: Missionaries want to deliver souls from satan, from darkness and ignorance and bring them to Enlightenment or salvation. But you said that you have no desires and that even missionary zeal is lost in this state. It - zeal for the kingdom of God - belongs to a lower state. I have never heard this before and would like this explained.
SWAMI G: A Realized Being touches others just by their presence ......
....Indeed, but in order to be present to others one must move.
One must do something, not wait for others to find them by magick. All the
saints went out with zeal to reach others. Today, they are doing it still.)
Being that they live within the ever present Light of God - Truth is given at every moment ..... this Truth is there to break the shells of darkness and shadow that blind others to the very Freedom of their Natures ..... Every breath of a Realized Being cuts through darkness ..... it simply takes place ------- Salvation is ever Present -- it is the Divine Seed of Absolute which lives within the Heart of All mankind ......
There is in the literature of Christianity great souls - some of the greatest mystical saints who ever lived. Some of what you have said contradicts what they say. Two things stand out. One, the desire to be without any desire whatsoever, no even missionary zeal - to simply remain in a place of abstraction and absorption in God. Perhaps this is considered righteous in yoga but in Christianity, this is considered selfish.
SWAMI G: Hahahahahahah selfish is one that seeks to force their religious persuasions down another's throat just to make themselves feel somehow more in tune with a self appointed mission as they deem their religious texts require ...... the Realized Being gives spontaneously no matter what religious persuasion to move others forward in their timing .......
(Editor: We are familiar with Protestant and Christian missionaries, preachers and faith healers who went through Hell and high water to save souls. This is seen in a negative light by Swami G as pushing religion down the throats of others to prove something to themselves! Swami G calls this "self appointed," as if God did not appoint them! Is this attitude typical of the East, one wonders? Then why do so many from the East come to the States? Are they also self appointed - pushing down people's throats their religion? I have heard many atheists and hard- hearted souls talk this way!)
RASA: In Christianity we reach these states of contemplative vision, but we choose not to stay in them for prolonged periods of time, in favor of working for the salvation of others.
SWAMI G: better to work out your own salvation First ..... then...
(Editor: We are talking of saved souls in various degrees of Enlightenment! - This would seem obvious. Those who are not saved, or dead in spirit, would not go out to save others!)
...when God is Lived and there is no self(ish) me story that remains --- Then the aiding in the Salvation of others simply arrives as a daily flow ..... it is the nature of the Realized One to give even when not giving ..... it simply takes place .....
(Editor: If one waited for perfect self realization before helping others, we would be in a sad state of affairs.)
RASA: Our Holy Mother worked for others until the day she died, where she could have chosen to stay in the state you speak of. She was given great consolation and certain glorious favors, but also, she continued suffering on and off.
SWAMI G: Where is the proof of this ?
(Editor: There is as much proof of this as there is for the Eastern Saints...Ven. Mary of Agreda's Mystical City of God explains it. Also the visions of Anne Catherine Emmerich.)
RASA: All our Christian saints suffered immensely.
SWAMI G: Within the journey YES there is GREAT Suffering .... at one point one feels not only their own suffering but the suffering and the weight of the world ..... it is beyond what anyone can imagine ... it is torture ---
RASA: But you disparage suffering, saying it is beneath the highest state.
SWAMI G: It is a state one passes through ........ Did Christ remain on the cross ? or did he Arise to Transition pain and spoke of Liberation Now ..... why do christians want to keep him on the cross ?
(Editor: We are living Christs. He showed us the way. We walk His walk, talk His talk. He went to the Cross, we go to the Cross. We get everything He got, if we love Him. And we rise with Him, not just at the time of death, but while we live. We rise up from our ashes of the burned-up ego-self and no longer I live, but Christ in me. Swami G thinks like some Protestants.)
RASA: This totally contradicts Christianity. I don't expect you to suddenly become an expert on Christianity, but to simply explain as best you can why you disagree with this.
SWAMI G: I come out of an esoteric christian background so yes christianity is understood quite well......
Christ is Risen -----
(Editor: Christ is not separate from us, not apart or dual from us! we are Christ living now!)
...suffering is the attachment of mind to transient experience .... rather than Knowing the Eternal and Unchanging Absolute of God which is the seed of their Being ...... Once this is entered and Remains as paramount this idea of suffering self ends ...
Both you and many others of the Eastern tradition despise suffering as something that is unnecessary and not to be held onto.
SWAMI G: Despise as unnecessary? Suffering comes out of attachments to the temporal world as what is paramount.. Suffering may be a point of contact for Deep inner questioning ..... in this it has it's value ..... it is like a left handed blessing ........ but Suffering is NOT the goal .... Liberation and Surrendering into GRACE which then takes one inward to the Holy of Holies where all suffering ends is the goal.......
(Editor: Neither Jesus nor any saint EVER said that suffering was the goal. Please, Swami G, do not insult our intelligence!)
...christians have gotten a false notion that somehow continuing on in suffering is somehow more holy ..... so they can have as much suffering and ideas of holiness as their minds wish to manufacture .......
(Editor: Absolutely not true! No saint is attached to suffering but endures it for the sake of God's love!)
.....having God as the inner seed of Being ----- All is possible ......... Even great amounts of suffering if you believe in that ......
RASA: What is your opinion on the sufferings of Jesus Christ and those of His followers?
SWAMI G: He said " Oh faithless generation , how long shall I be with you ? How long shall I suffer you ?
Also On these two hang All the laws of the prophets
you LOVE God with ALL your mind - with ALL your
Heart and with All your soul ....
2. That you Love your neighbor as yourself .....
....and finally Take up your cross and follow me ...... this wasn't an admonition to suffer ....... it was rather Do What you are Here to Do ..... Christ was here and it was his path to go to the cross ..... he Surrendered to that ..... Surrender to what you are here to do Now .....
(Editor: There is more than one way to look at the Cross of Jesus, which we also carry. We learn to identify with what Jesus taught. We carry the Cross according to our ability and are not asked to carry what is beyond our scope. Theresa of Lisieux, the Little Flower, explained her theology of littleness. Since she was not capable of big Crosses, she offered up her tiny daily Crosses and felt this was perfectly acceptable toward holiness. She was right. It goes by the individual There are the "great" and the "little," each giving all that they have, and it is sufficient. There is a big theology to this which escapes Swami G and which we will get into later....also those especially chosen to carry the Cross are called 'Victims of Love.' Let those in darkness laugh. I do not laugh.)
RASA: His stigmatists? Did not these sufferings carry the greatest merit?
SWAMI G: Why would then be the greatest merit? their attachment to Christ's being on the cross and the identification with it Allowed the stigmata to appear...... it was a part of their journey .... perhaps it gives some type of faith to others and in that it has it's value ..... to show that the world is more than what limited minds can see ......
What have you done, in your spiritual life, that you are most righteously proud of?
SWAMI G: Nothing .....
RASA: That you are glad you did?
SWAMI G: Came to the point of total exhaustion and surrender even into the face of death which allowed ever present Grace to appear which swallowed up the illusion of the suffering me story .....
(Editor: One does not argue with this and many other points Swami G makes. She knows her stuff. It is Christian Mystical Theology she knows not. This principle here was practiced by all the Christian saints!)
RASA: What decisions did you make that brought you to the state of Enlightenment?
SWAMI G: Nothing but inner desire to Know the Truth ----- even if it meant death ..... Surrendering --- seeking Light ---- continuing forward through the suffering states ...... always going within and seeking God.....
RASA: What left-handed blessings? What gifts of God?
SWAMI G: The sufferings of the mind and body gave a point to begin Deep Self-Enquiry into what i was not......
(Editor: This sounds like the Buddhist way.)
...being born into a family where there was no demonstration of Love gave only one way to turn (Within) ..... active Kundalini brought up all the phenomena etc. to show again what one is not ..... and that this world of the transient is mind stuff and temporary sensory experience ------ it can be Leela (the play of God ) or Maya (the suffering of separation into a me story)
If you do not communicate with the spiritual plane - that which is not seen - and yet claim you are nondualistic, that seems to be some sort of contradiction.
SWAMI G: Communication with other is duality ..... what is there to communicate with when God is ONE as IS .....
RASA: Here you are saying God is all, and all is God. You are That. If you are "That" then you should be able to communicate on other planes.
SWAMI G: Other planes fall away ......
(Editor: But the physical plane has not fallen away to you. That is what I am trying to say. Why do you restrict your communication, your conversations, only with those who have bodies?)
Absolute is beyond all planes ..... it at once sustains them and is Beyond them ..... Consciousness that is Whole seeks no other ...... other is the manufacturing of a way to fill a hole .......
RASA: Yet it seems to me you restrict your communication to the physical and material.
SWAMI G: physical and material are the illusions of separation .....
RASA: In other words, the same thing shallow people do.
SWAMI G: that is your judgementalism ..... until This consciousness has been entered don't be so quick to make such shallow pronouncements..... shallow is that which fears facing their own pain ----
(Editor: I have a strong suspicion that one who has the Divine Stigmata knows what pain is!)
...in facing it one dives deep into the waters of no mans land ...... the bondages are cut ...... then the Unknown and Unknowable is entered ... Reality shifts ----- the world one was engaging falls away and GOD appears as not something separate but rather the ONLY Reality ------ it IS ------ the world is only an echo ...... a by-product of it's nature ...... Shakti is the infinite changing transient which can be played in endlessly ...... it can be either Liberating or can bring greater delusion .... most are in the delusion stage .....
RASA: Shallow people, people of the world and flesh, are concerned only with the physical/material. They know nothing of the other side of the veil, or spiritual matters.
SWAMI G: really? there are a lot of shallow people that use spiritual matters as a way of escape ..... as a way to cover over and run away from the very suffering that may hold a key to final liberation ...... yes it is very very enticing to chase after psychic things ..... to attempt to go to other realms etc....... but what candle does any of this hold compared to Resting in that Divine Essence and Absolute which is Peace and the True Pearl of Great Price ..... ? Where is the restless need of chasing realms or others then ?
(Editor: What are we talking about here? Do visions of Reality, Truth and God Face to Face as seen by saints and mystics represent negative things to Swami? Was Bl. Mary of Piazza less than perfect? St. Dominic, St. Anthony of Padua, St. Francis, St. Gertrude the Great, St. Catherine of Sienna, and many more, all great visionaries, were in a lower state? Books are filled with their visions, locutions and communications beyond the veil....this did not limit them...they were One with God...these visions were what they shared with Humanity!)
RASA: By what you have said to me, you are living as they live, communicating only with people by the physical voice, words, letters, and so forth. There is no mental, spiritual, extraordinary or supernatural communication going on. I do not understand why this would be so, as every saint I have studied had supernormal abilities. Will you say you are above all the saints I have studied, and left them behind?
SWAMI G: what is a saint ? there is only what is ...... Yes things come up as needed for others ...... others have dreams where this form appears .... Yes what is felt by others is known here ...... but what you term supernatural communication happens only as a matter of course here ... it does not see lines of division of self versus other ..... it is just the screen of consciousness ..... it simply take place...
You did say you have similarity and succession with Ramana Maharshi. Could you please explain in what way/s you are like him?
SWAMI G: No attachments to mind ..... no attachments to aversions or desires..... there is only this moment ---
You say you have no desires, and so, do you mean across the board?
SWAMI G: No driving desires ..... no feeling of lack .....
RASA: Do you have no spiritual desires?
SWAMI G: When Absolute IS what is there to desire spiritually ?
RASA: Do you have no desires to save souls from darkness?
SWAMI G: This happens as a matter of course .... it is not a driving desire ..... they are saved when they have had enough of the darkness .....
RASA: Do you have or have not any goals for your future and the future of your ministry?
SWAMI G: No ---- the universe will play out as it will ....
RASA: How do you see God and your relationship with God? Are you God? Is God you? I am asking this respectfully.
SWAMI G: There is no relationship with God ....... there is only God .... no me and God ..... the me is an echo of form ..... God or THIS is the Ground of all Being .....
RASA: Do you ever see God in the dualistic way, as many saints have chosen to do? There are, as you know, many saints who fathom the nondualistic God but in their day-to-day existence, they choose to look at God as separate.
SWAMI G: No ---- it is at once all ......
RASA: Myself I have indeed seen God face to face and have perfect perception of nondualism, whatever you may think. But I do choose to sometimes look at images of say, Our Lady of Guadalupe and meditate on Her and worship Her. I know there is a perfect Oneness, yet I choose to do this. And yet, you will automatically demote such people to a lower place - correct?
SWAMI G: Why is there this -- whatever you may think ? By your own words there is a persona an "I" that has views and is in relationship with ....... this is Duality ..... yes it can be a dance and a harmony ------ but it is duality non the less .... it has nothing to do with demoting anyone to a lower place ...... it is simply what the consciousness is at the moment ...... where it is at ..... the judgments in this are all your own......
(Editor: I did not judge myself. I was reiterating what Swami said before - that nondualism was Nirvakalpa, the highest state, but dualism or praying to God as separate, worshipping God as separate, is Sarvikalpa, a lower state. This is on audio tape.)
RASA: Such people are Sarvikalpa, not Nirvakalpa. They are dualistic rather than nondualistic - even if they make that choice on a day to day level?
SWAMI G: If it is a choice then it is within a dynamic of self and God.... in Non duality there is no choice........ it simply IS ......
RASA: Even Ramakrishna? He was not the only one who enjoyed God in a nondualistic way but chose to worship God in images.
SWAMI G: There was an immersion in the play of God......... beyond suffering
(Editor: Read the life of Ramakrishna and there was LOTS of suffering - so bad he was in AGONY!)
..... he was also ONE as Kali ....... the self for him was only an echo ---- it was not a seeming solid substance as with most that say they are in communication with God .....
(Editor: No soul who is proficient or realized, in their right mind, sees God as a solid substance or Being! Give us a break!)
was the consciousness of Kali as well .....
RASA: Others, including myself, have done so. In some cases, as I look at images, I know it is something within myself.
SWAMI G: Right you see it as something within your self or me-ness ..... RamaKrishna Was Kali not identifying something as a part resonating within his separate identity ....
(Editor: Words, words, words. What do they mean?)
RASA: In other cases, I am looking at a separate Being in God. Do you believe there are separate Beings, such as the saints that were here and ascended, now separate beings in Heaven, or do you believe they lose their identity/individuality and merge into total nonexistence as separate beings?
SWAMI G: They are simply in flow ...... others are judging it according to their limitations in consciousness .... whether in form or subtle form or none it matters not .....
RASA: In other words, Ramakrishna and Ramana Maharshi no longer exist. They only existed in body, but now they are no more.
SWAMI G: Really ? where have they gone ?
(Editor: Swami G here seems to be avoiding the issue...it is she who said that there is no personality, no individuality and so forth. Now she is making it seem like Rasa is saying that it is so, when Rasa is trying to say that individuality remains on some level even when the body is gone.)
RASA: So if I pray to one of them as Guru, they do not exist. How do you perceive this?
SWAMI G: If you are in the consciousness that relates only to physical forms then they are no more .....
(Editor: I never said we are the body! Putting words in my mouth, Swami! I am not the body, I am the Spirit! I see the Spirit! And I was asking you if you communicated with the Spirit of those who once were in body, and you call them ghosts! Swami is quibbling with me!)
They have not gone anywhere for they were Never the form ..... they are still in the same place .... within Life .....
Do people in this state have faults?
SWAMI G: Faults are judged by others ....
RASA: Do you have faults?
SWAMI G: Depends on who is viewing ..... actions are questioned by others ..... what is done or not done is judged by the judging world ..... it comes out of their own insecurities or gathered and collect ideas about how things should be ......
RASA: Do you consider yourself above the human condition and not susceptible to it?
SWAMI G: What is the human condition ? if you mean mental suffering it has ended ......
RASA: How do you look upon your human nature, your mortality?
SWAMI G: The body is a vehicle for experience on this plane ..... that is all ...... Life is Eternal and simply continues to unfold and flows ...... mortality ? death is the illusion ......
RASA: I think these are enough questions for now.
G: The best way to find out answers is to go within .... stop running
away or covering over old pains .........go into them deeply and question
the source ..... find out what you are not ...... everything will disintegrate
until one day nothing remains except the Reality .....
you so much!
Rasa Von Werder
Love - Light - Great Peace & IS